Under the Global Umbrella
Welcome to Under the Global Umbrella — a podcast celebrating the people and organisations driving real change in diversity, equity and inclusion across the world
Created by Diversity Umbrella, this series shines a spotlight on the incredible winners and changemakers from the British Diversity Awards, the European Diversity Awards, the Rainbow Honours, and the Employee Network Awards.
Through honest conversations and powerful stories, we go beyond the headlines to explore the impact behind the accolades — sharing lived experiences, bold leadership, and the ideas shaping more inclusive workplaces and communities.
Because recognition matters — but understanding the journey behind it matters even more.
Under the Global Umbrella
Under the Global Umbrella Podcast: Episode 2: Jennifer Thomas, London Stock Exchange Group (LSEG)
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In this episode of Under the Global Umbrella, hosts Char Bailey and Kat Parsons welcome Jennifer Thomas, Global Head of Equity, Diversity and Inclusion at London Stock Exchange Group (LSEG). Jennifer shares her journey from leading communications into one of the UK's most influential DEI leadership roles, offering honest insights into what it takes to build inclusive workplaces on a global scale. Together, they explore the importance of leadership, authenticity, employee networks and creating meaningful, lasting change. The conversation also highlights LSEG's longstanding support of the British Diversity Awards and other Diversity Umbrella events, celebrating the partnerships and people driving progress. It's an inspiring and practical discussion for anyone passionate about belonging, inclusion and leadership.
Welcome to the very first episode of Under the Global Umbrella, a podcast celebrating the people and organisations driving real change in diversity, equity, and inclusion across the world. I'm Charles Bailey, and I'm taking you on this journey with none other than the CEO of Diversity Umbrella.
SPEAKER_01It's me, Kat Parsons. We have created this series to shine a spotlight on the incredible winners and change makers from the British Diversity Awards, the European Diversity Awards, the Rainbow Honours, and the Employee Network Awards. This episode, we are joined by the fabulous Jennifer Thomas from London Stock Exchange Group LSEG. Jennifer, welcome. Hey Kat.
SPEAKER_05I'm so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we are very excited, aren't we, Shah?
SPEAKER_00We are extremely excited. I love working with LSEG actually. I've been to so many events there.
SPEAKER_01I have as well.
SPEAKER_00And it's so much fun. So very excited to have you here, Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Shah.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. Tell us a bit about you, Jennifer. Your role, how long you've been at London Stock Exchange Group. The Inside Scoop, please.
SPEAKER_05Oh, the Inside Scoop. So I've been there almost five years. I actually joined the organization as head of communications for data and analytics business, which I don't know. I don't know if many people know that actually. I do not know that. Depends which hat you've ever seen me with. And then about two and a half years ago, uh moved from the communications team into the people function to then lead our global equity, diversity and inclusion agenda.
SPEAKER_01Which you do very, very well. Oh, thank you. I do try. Very well. Let's say, as Shah said, some of the events that you have uh at Elseg, the market closes. I think I've been there for Lesbian Visibility Week for the last three years.
SPEAKER_02I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We've had uh British Diversity Awards Market Close as well. That was interesting.
SPEAKER_05That was an inaugural one. That was great.
SPEAKER_01That's pretty good. Loads of events. How do you keep up?
SPEAKER_05Uh we're a very, very tired team. Um but look, honestly, I think uh given obviously I have worked other organizations, we're really blessed, A, to have what we call our balcony. Um, and for those that don't know, it's also the home of the London Stock Exchange. So obviously, uh there are many companies that IPO there. And one of the things we're really blessed with is to have a balcony and and we use it. We use it for thought leadership, uh, we use it to convene. That's that's sort of our our big tag. Um, and so the ability to bring people together for important discussions, to um bring people together to celebrate, but also to reflect, I think is something that not every organization is able to do in the way that we do it. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's always such a big ceremony, isn't it? Like again, if no one's been, it's you sort of, yeah, you're all sort of gathered on the on this balcony. There's a massive countdown that seems to last for about it. It's a big button, isn't it? It's a huge button that's pressed. There's like a five-minute of things happening with numbers in greens. Lost trades of the day. That's it. I get told every time I go and I always forget what is actually what I'm I'm just so like, oh my goodness. And then there's confetti bombs, there's usually some sort of singer going on, like it's a proper. I mean, how is that your full-time job?
SPEAKER_05I know, right? I I wish that was all my job was, Kat. I really do. Um and I will say as a caveat, we we don't have the confetti and the balloons and all of that for every single marketplace.
SPEAKER_01It's a special one.
SPEAKER_05So do you see how special we are in the EDI world? Um, so yeah, it's great. It's great when we're able to come together and do that.
SPEAKER_01I do joke, but I mean, in terms of like the bit afterwards, it's everyone then is back. There's a nice auditorium, isn't there? There's always an amazing panel event where it's people that you it's not the regular people, I think. Sometimes you sort of go to events, it's like same faces. It it's always one of the best, I think, curated, and it it depends who's hosting. I know you host a lot of them, Jennifer.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but yeah, we have different hosts who who come in, and you're right, but you know, sort of back to that that convening, you know, even as long as I've been there. Um, A, I'm really privileged in the role that I do to be able to bring those different people into the organization. But I think when we look across the entire piece of what Elseg's trying to do, uh whether it's specifically with an EDI lens or even uh a client lens, and again, it's how we use the balcony to showcase the breadth of people that are in our sector, in our industry and our customers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it makes you know, when you are uh an intersectional person or a member of a minority group to be somewhere with the gravitas of the London Stock Exchange, is it's really overwhelming and it's really, really special. And I'm very curious, Jennifer, um, why is it that inclusion is so important to your business? You mentioned that you know you are a global organization, you have so many different organizations that work with LSEC. So, why is inclusion so important?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think let's start with the global nature. That's that's the obvious place to start. Um, you know, the essence of what we do, economies, markets, literally around the world. Um we absolutely should and have to be reflecting the community, the communities that we uh are servicing, the communities in which we've got our people located all over the world. Uh despite London being in our name, uh we are definitely not only London-centric. Uh, but you want to literally reflect what is outside your doors, in your doors. So from that perspective, and I know a lot of organizations say that, but I think it's especially critical when you're represented as far and wide as we are. I think also when you think about talent and future talent, you know, again, almost irrespective of where you're based and where you operate. Um, thinking about talent for the future, I don't think can ever sort of be that single view of the world. Um, and so us, like many other organizations, are really trying to think through where do we find different talent, different thought, different backgrounds, different ethnicities. Um, you know, you you want an array of people in your organization to help sort of drive that innovation, drive that thinking, and also to challenge in different ways, right? People, different people come with different perspectives, and you absolutely need that in any business. So it's very critical to us.
SPEAKER_01I think the the impressive thing I think about LSIG as well is not only do you put the events on that bring the people in, you do the work internally yourselves because you can see the value in it, and then you put your brand out as well in terms of sponsorship. So you are the headline sponsor for the British Diversity Awards. We are. You are, and I know that that's been renewed for another three years. Whoop-whoop. Indeed, whoop whoop.
SPEAKER_00But I can practice that now when I'm in the intram. Welcome to the British Diversity Awards. Sponsored by Elso Group.
SPEAKER_01There you go. There you go, it's perfect. Perfect done. But but I think the the main question for me, I mean, thank you, obviously, firstly, but but why is it so important for you? You know, that is almost like we always say it's almost like the jewel in our crown of of the year. The British Diversity Awards is absolutely massive. I think we had 1,100 people in the room um this year in March. You know, it's a it's a huge stage, a lot of corporates. Like, why was that one I think specifically for you? Why were you drawn to sponsor that one?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I I think it's no secret that we've we've got a variety. I mean, people see our brand and our name across different uh awards, but also other sponsorship um opportunities. And I can honestly say when I came into the role, I was almost very deliberate to look across the piece, look at everything we were sponsoring and supporting, and you want it to really reflect the strategy and the work that we're doing. We know there's lots of amazing and fantastic initiatives out there, and if we all had bottomless pockets, we would sponsor all of them. Um, but you know, you have to make some choices, and uh what we try and do is really align who we partner with to sort of mirror and reflect the things that we're working on strategically. So, with respect to the BDAs, one of the things that that really resonates, and I will say, you know, a lot of this thanks to this almost the relationship of Erica Bourne and Linda Riley, sort of that, you know, perfect uh relationship of then us being able to and having the opportunity to sponsor. Um, but we have really been able, I think, to I guess kind of grow a little bit with the BDAs, which which is also nice to be able to do to almost co-create with your partner, and we really like that. We like how um the BDAs looks across the piece, so very easy in this space, and sometimes it's the right thing to do, but sort of look at the vertical, one of the verticals within the EDI space, which we do. Sometimes you have to focus on a particular community, um, and we shouldn't shy away from that. But quite a lot of the time we like to look sort of horizontally across the piece, and I think there's something quite magical about uniting all aspects of diversity sort of under the same umbrella. Look at that, see what I did there. Well done. Um, because I think, especially in today's world, that is really important, how we come together as a collective across the the many spheres of diversity to really support each other, I think is critical. So I personally look for initiatives that help us do that. And yes, there's still space for you know the individual things that support very specific communities, but the things that sort of go horizontal across the piece, you know, you you talked about the the magical, you know, over a thousand people in one room. You can feel that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you do. The energy is is electric, isn't it? People say that, don't they? Oh, it's electric, but you absolutely feel it. I think it's definitely that sort of fuel moving forward, it's that celebration you get to connect with people you've not seen for ages as long as you can find them in the room because there's a lot of people in that room. Um, but no, it is, I think it is that fuel that then drives people forward. You um you mentioned Erica Bourne there, who's your chief people officer, who is is phenomenal. She's obviously completely on board with this agenda. Yeah. You don't have any sort of conflict in terms of like, let's do more of this. You know, she's she seems to be well on board.
SPEAKER_05Oh no, absolutely. I mean it's it's really critical. Um, and I think anybody who works in this space when you've got the genuine support of your senior leaders and your bosses, if you will. And you know, when I say bosses, that's like all the way up to the top of the house. This job isn't easy, right? But that makes it so much easier. Uh the challenges that come with it, it's it's not always plain sailing, it's not a perfectly linear journey. Um, and to be able to have sometimes some real challenging debates and discussions internally as to what do we do, where do we go, um, where are we struggling, what else can we be doing? It is incredibly difficult to do that if you haven't got the support of senior management. So yeah, uh I wouldn't have been in the role if I didn't, I can honestly tell you that. So it's it's great to be able to work with other senior leaders who are like-minded and just as passionate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we're we're talking a lot about growth, um, collaboration, growth, and how we can come together to really make progress. Um, we are, you know, in the awards sector, we have, you know, four that are absolutely huge. I'm interested, Jennifer, in your opinion. What role do awards play in not just driving progress, but also recognizing it?
SPEAKER_05So, starting with the celebration, which again, again, we've already commented how electric that is. Um, but it is more than that. I I think awards are a form of role modelling. And I think uh there are many people, and sometimes we forget because we're blessed and we get to be in those rooms probably more often than than some other colleagues. Um I watch the people who it's their first time, their first time receiving an award, first time being nominated, first time being shortlisted, first time experiencing what we've just experienced, and you forget how meaningful that is. Um and I've just said, whether you formally work in the EDI space, or as we often say, you're doing it at the side of your desk to really champion, drive change, have impact, uh sometimes it can feel like a thankless job, or it can go, or you can feel like it's unseen and unheard. So I do think awards are a great way of bringing people together, enabling people to see other people, exchange ideas, uh acknowledge, yeah, we can do it, acknowledge we have actually had some genuine impact and made some seismic change, if anything, just as a reminder to keep you going. Um so, yes, the celebration on the night is great and it's fun and it's wonderful, but I think it's almost the the halo effect of it that gets all those people going back to work on Monday or whatever day it is and saying, Okay, we're gonna go again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think that that bit about the magic, I I think I have also been guilty of you know, I've been in the in the awards scene for probably about three or four years where you're in you're hosting a table and you've got to get all the people in the right place and all this, you know, senior leaders and network leads and inclusion councils and shadow boards, and you know, you try and be really sort of equal on who you're inviting to these things. And when you're doing them sort of quite regular, you do get a little bit like, I know how this works, I have a glass of champagne, like I'm sort of I'm settled in, I've got the program, I'd like to guess who's gonna win each category as a bit of a sort of like a fun little game. Yeah, another fun little game. But it is, it's that magic of people being like, oh my goodness, like thank you so much for inviting me to this. It's almost like recognition, even if they're not up for an award, yeah. The recognition of you know them being on the table is absolutely massive. And then they go back to the office on on Monday morning and say, like, oh my goodness, like that was amazing. And then others are like, How do we get in? How do we get in? How do we get in?
SPEAKER_00Backstage, one of the questions that I always ask everyone is for those who don't have the privilege of being in this room, can you explain what it feels like? What's the energy like there? And the I think the top answer that most people say is using the word inspiring. And I think it's in the true essence of the word inspiration. They are inspired into action, it makes them want to go and do something called be something called add value to wherever they've come from, and it really does put a smile on people's faces and make a huge difference to how they see themselves and where they see themselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and almost like what they want to do next. So again, you see sort of these inspirational role models and you see um HR change makers and you see heads of D and I, and it's almost a bit like that that could be me. I could do that. Yeah, that could be me.
SPEAKER_05Or if you're me and you're a competitor, you're like, hey, hang on, how did you do that? How do you do that and how do I do it better?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And that is exactly why we're opening the doors to say, because uh there is that competitiveness, and again, when you're in sort of uh you know, in a particular industry, again, as you say, the these awards are sector-wide. So you're not in your playing in your own sort of sector arena, and then you're being competitive not only in your own sector but across other sectors. How have they done that? How did they win that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm gonna ask actually. I'm gonna ask Jennifer now, actually, to share with me the best practice so that we can all get an insight into what does an inclusive culture actually look like when it's working? When it's working.
SPEAKER_05I I wish I had a very just very, very simple answer, because I actually think it's a lot of things when it's really working. Um I think when and hopefully this will make sense when I say it, because I think for those of us that have experienced it, hopefully people will know what I'm talking about. I always say when you sort of walk into a business or an organization, and literally whoever you speak to, wherever in the world you are, whichever office you're in, you really feel like you belong there. So it's not just because I'm in this team or I have this boss, or because I do this role. It's like everywhere you go in the organization, you're like, this is this is for me, and I can just be who I am. Um, I can relate to other people, people relate to me. I don't have to code switch, I don't have to pretend I'm somebody else, which we all know we put a lot of energy in into doing, and we've all got those stories. And I think when you experience that for the first, it's a really big aha moment, and especially when you get so used to sort of pretending to be somebody else to fit in, and suddenly you haven't got to do that anymore, it's such a huge relief. So for me, that that is true inclusion, which probably sounds very basic and very simple, but we also know how hard that is to achieve. And I think sometimes when you're uh talking about diversity and representation, almost by slight definition, uh you could be excluding people. Yeah, when we talk about inclusion, that literally is for everyone, about everyone. So I almost like to start there first. Like we should all be able to feel like this is my family, this is my place, this is where I can be who I am. And then you sort of overlay the diversity characteristics. But if you've kind of got that foundation right, by the time you get to the representation point, I'd like to hope and believe it should be a little bit easier.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that exclusion piece is really difficult, isn't it? Because I think for a long time the focus on diversity, equity, inclusion has been on diversity. And then you know, you're tracking things and you've got targets for things, and it's really difficult. You said there about that feeling of belonging, it's a feeling. So how do you measure a feeling? But by putting data points in to measure that, that can equally feel like it's excluding to other people as well. And then you've sort of got this sort of undertone where some people are like, This is great. Like I'm in here, I can say whatever I want to say, you know, I can be who I am. And then you've got others that are then almost being sort of sort of quieter because they don't fit in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yes, it's about making sure that how do you relate that inclusion to every single individual so that no one is feeling sort of turned off.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, inclusion is about humanity, right? Yeah. It's it's about humanity and the the D are just the things that either society or ourselves just give us a way to identify in a different way. Um, but fundamentally that feeling, you want every human being to feel like they belong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and so I I almost think sometimes you have to put quite a lot of effort into that, probably more than we think. Yeah. Um, and not solely just focus on diverse groups. Yes, there's a lot of work to do there. But like I said, if you can get the fundamentals right, um, which is really the essence of your culture, that's you know, that's what we're talking about. Um then I think when you're working on the other aspects, it gives you a pathway. You've already got a solid foundation to build on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wow. I'm I'm blown away actually because I think when we talk about diversity, we often forget that when we have diversity of thought, we also then have diversity of need. And when we make it that tick box of let's get everybody in, um, before we actually think, well, do we actually have the capacity to think about what everybody's needs are? We do them a disservice, but when we apply that angle of we're being inclusive, that it really does do exactly what it says on the tin. It includes everyone and it gives everybody an opportunity to feel that psychological safety that they need in order to be able to do their best. Um, so thank you for saying that. I know it is not one of those things. It is I guess it's one of those things that it's simple but it's not easy to implement. Um if there are any easy things, or if there's one thing, what's the one thing that an organization can do tomorrow that would make a genuine difference?
SPEAKER_05I'm gonna cheat and I'm gonna say there's two.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I'm gonna love yes. Oh, I love a social disruptor. Break the rules.
SPEAKER_05Well, the first thing I'd say, so I call it the mirror moments.
SPEAKER_00The mirror moment. Oh goodness, the mirror moment.
SPEAKER_05Everybody's just sitting up straight now. Do tell the mirror moments. So I think every organization has to go through a mirror moment. What do I mean by that? It's literally where the organization looks itself in the mirror and says, Are we really doing what we say we're doing? It's the honest conversation that you again back to psychological safety, you have in a safe space. But I think it's often the thing that goes unsaid out of a variety of reasons, fear, run out of time, nobody wants to address it. Uh, you get a bit bedazzled by all the the awards, the things, the the stuff that looks great on the outside, which I call the shop window. But actually, when you go in the storeroom, is it really messy in there? So I think have the mirror moment and really challenge yourself to say, you know, are we doing everything possible to be the organization we say we want to be? So that's my first one. So you start there, which is a big, big thing to do and a big Thing to ask yourself. And then the part two of that is what are our people telling us? So Kat, you've already referenced, we do a lot of data gathering, you know, you've got employee surveys, you know, organizations do an array of things to do the listening piece. There's listening and then there's action. And there's nothing worse than people sharing. And they think they've been heard, but then no action happens. So part of that mirror moment is also really reflecting not just what the organization wants to do, but what are our people need? What are our people telling us that they need for this place to be even better? And it's not always that things are terrible, it could be an even better if. But that listening piece and bringing the two together, so it's you sort of interrogating yourself a bit, and then it's the listening piece of what's our antennae telling us? What are our people telling us that can give us some cues on what direction we should go in?
SPEAKER_01So it's sort of a bit of a you said we did.
SPEAKER_05I love a you said we did.
SPEAKER_01Love that. That bit about mirror moments, that's always really difficult, isn't it? Because even if you're trying to do that yourself in terms of, am I doing enough in my role? You know, you it's sometimes it's you know if you're trying to confronting, isn't it? It is confronting. And then as an organization as well, especially when you're such a big brand and you put your brand in the right places and you're, you know, you're you're trying to do everything you possibly can externally and internally. That mirror moment, do you ever get sort of a bit of a you know pushback, sucking of teeth, like, you know, no, we're doing enough, we're doing enough, or or are people quite receptive, you know, leaders in the organization to say, yeah, okay, for I can see that.
SPEAKER_05I think um, so my experience, you know, not just at LSEC, but sort of other organizations, um, and and you have to curate it like in the right way, in the right place. This isn't like me going on broadcasts and trying to out people out or anything like that. It's it's again in the capacity of my role, I've got the ability to do that. I've got the ability to do that around Erica's table, I've got the ability to do that around the executive table. And so you want to be able to build that trust first and have the relationships with the senior leaders. And and I would like to think they expect me to come in with some hard truths, right? If I came in there all the time and was like, everything's rosy, everything's great, everything's perfect. Well, A, then I'd be out of a job. Yeah, because then in theory, wouldn't wouldn't need me, wouldn't need us. Um, which is actually that's that that is my my dream, actually, because then we'll know we've cracked it. I mean that would be nice, but right? But hey. Um so it I think it needs to be done with respect, it needs to be done uh in a way that is well thought through and constructive. Uh if you've got data and insights that helps. So it's not just a well, I I feel like this, or I, you know, it's like, here's what I'm seeing, here's what our people are telling us, here's what's going on externally. So it's an array of things that is kind of like a little report card, right? It's a reflection back. Here's where I think maybe we're slightly underperforming or where we could be better, here's where we're smashing it out of the park. So we want to keep that going so we don't want to lose that. But actually, I think strategically we need to double down in these areas.
SPEAKER_03Turn that up.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I do see that as my job to advise and counsel and direct the or help to direct the organization to do that. That's what me and my team are there for. And I think if we weren't doing that, then we also wouldn't be doing our jobs properly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, someone once referred to the the head of DNR role as almost that conscience of the business. It should be. Because all of these sort of decisions are made, and you know, there's people functions and health and safety and all these sort of things, things that are all need to happen for the organization to, you know, keep going. And I think sometimes you get blind blind to the the bigger picture. So to have someone who is not in that team. So you sit within the people team. I sit within the people team. Yeah, so I've sat within the people team in when I've been head of DNI and I've sat outside of the people team, and it's it's quite interesting, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I find it incredibly beneficial to be in the people team because it's the it's people agenda, right? And so you're really docked into how we're thinking about our people, everything we're doing, the initiatives, so everything from policy, framework, like all of it, rather than having to sort of knock on the door and be like, hello, where where where does D and I fit into the space? Like you're just there because we've got a seat at the table. So I have found it incredibly helpful. Um, when I've done it and I haven't been uh within the people function or necessarily around that leadership table, then I've jumped straight to sort of ex go and board where I've had that opportunity. Um and that is harder to find the path in somewhere because you haven't got that sort of immediate sponsorship sometimes, but it doesn't make it impossible. Uh and I think again it's it's it's about tapping into well, what does the organization care about? What are the bigger strategic things they're trying to do? And how do you make sure EDI is just part of that thinking across the piece, whether it's core business decisions, people agenda, all of it, and that that's your route in whoever you need to go through to kind of get a voice at the table.
SPEAKER_00Well, you've you've mentioned that you have incredible relationships and you have a seat at the table with um the senior leaders in your organisation. So I'm curious to know there will be uh amazing business leaders listening to this podcast. There will be people on their way to becoming incredible business leaders listening to this podcast. What is the one thing that you would like those leaders to take away from this conversation?
SPEAKER_05Don't be afraid. Uh we're living in a world with a lot of fear and a lot of angst, and uh sadly uh this agenda is is uh people are retreating from it rather than leaning in. So I would almost uh beg people too and business leaders to continue to lean in, and if you're not uh haven't lent in at all, start leaning in. This agenda is incredibly important uh for workforce of the future, talent of the future, innovation of the future. Um and if you're not leaning in, you will be left out.
SPEAKER_00Wow. If you're not leaning in, you will be left out. It's almost it's like a threat but not but not as threatening. I liked it. I liked it. It sounded ominous, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's so true though, isn't it? Because I think in that sort of leadership role, I think you you end up, you know, in terms of your career, you're building and building and building, you know, to get to these senior positions, if you know, if that's where you want to aspire to be. And then you almost feel like you have to be like the best of the best, untouchable, everything's under control, nothing to see here, like keep going, keep going. It's all great, I'm coping. Um but actually topics around diversity and inclusion are really, like you say, they're very difficult. And I think there's a lot about that sort of vulnerability. And to be a leader who says, Do you know, I really don't quite understand this, is a really difficult thing to say, but actually it pays off so well, I think. Because there's this whole thing with like cancel culture and being shot down if you say the wrong thing or you know, can't say that anymore, or you know, yeah, what do we do?
SPEAKER_05Or actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and there was a bit of someone was telling me about a bit of research. It was something like 67% of leaders will remain silent on DNI topics because it's just easier. Just don't say anything. It's just easier.
SPEAKER_05You get the paralysis a bit, um, which is where we're heading into.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and and I I have great sympathy for that. You know, we we also live in a bit of a really cruel world, I think, where we're losing a bit of just patience and understanding, which is understandable um given everything that's going on. But I uh maybe I just take it back to humanity and and again, very simply put, uh we should all just try to be a bit kinder to each other, um, take people on the journey, allow people to make mistakes and course correct. Uh I still like to believe that the majority of people are coming from a good place and not from a wicked, horrible place. Um and so I'm always thinking, well, how do I help them unlock that? I too don't know everything. I know. Shocking. Shocking that I don't. So I want to learn, yeah, continuous learning. I want people to teach me, tell me when I've overstepped, or you know, just show me the light sometimes, right? So I think if we can just remember at the the coal face of all of this, we're all just human beings and we all make mistakes and we get it wrong sometime, that that doesn't mean we're horrible people.
SPEAKER_01And that's okay.
SPEAKER_05That is okay.
SPEAKER_01That's okay. And you don't have to know everything. And you don't know everything. You're never gonna know everything.
SPEAKER_05And I also think people think that anyone that works in the EDI space knows everything there is to know about every single diverse community. Absolutely don't everything. Okay, we'll just tell everyone we do cat.
SPEAKER_01No, we don't.
SPEAKER_05We don't. Of course not. And I always say I don't represent every underrepresented group in the world. I I don't. So I I am learning on the job, I am learning from others. Um, and going back to what what's the benefit of you know something like BDAs, we can learn from each other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, cancel culture is scary, it is. Um, but I think as humanity we have to find a way to overcome that. Um and there there is comfort in numbers, right? So the more we can do this as a collective rather than sticking somebody out all on their own, yeah, um, then I think we can achieve a lot more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really nice actually. So um at one of the organizations I worked at, um our CEO Liz, I said, Oh, I would really like to do some sort of like brunch events. And she was like, brunch sounds lovely. I was like, so we're gonna almost like work through the resource groups. So we'll start with gender. She was a female CEO, absolutely like kick-ass, like brilliant, like exceptional woman. And um, she was like, Okay, fine, yeah, I can I can do this. That's good. I understand this agenda. She was sharing about her struggles, trying to get through her career in really male-dominated spaces. That was really good connection. She was she was listening to the stories from the business. We had about, I don't know, probably about 40 people, so we kept it quite small. Yeah. Um, loved it. Let's do another one. Great. So I said, right, we're gonna do something on Pride next. Ooh, um, I don't know. Can you give me some notes? And I was like, I can give you some pointers, but basically, this is you for you to listen to the organisation. So you don't need to know like everything there is. And all she wanted to know was L G B T Q I A plus. That's quite a mouthful. That's a lot, and she wanted to say the letters. So there was a sort of bit of coaching around being a said that, but equally like what all the letters. She didn't want to just roll it, she wanted to know what it meant. But it was really lovely because she came in and she positioned herself as I am not part of this community. This is quite new to me. So basically, tell me your experience of being LGBTQIA plus in this organization so I can hear it. And the power of hearing the stories that she was hearing directly from like our trans colleagues, yeah, or you know, people who are having their pronouns sort of confused and bits and pieces, the power of that was massive. And I think it's different. We hear these stories all the time. All the time. And you're in these network groups, and you know, people come and confide in you and and you sort of gather these stories. When you are then trying to sort of relay them to leadership, it there has some levels. Yeah, there's something that's but if you can actually like but see the tear in someone's eyes they're trying to tell you they're a lived experience that they've just gone through. Absolutely massive, and just doing that small bit, you have a bit of lunch afterwards, she mingled the room. We had a couple of exec sponsors in the room as well. So she again, not on her own. Yeah, she had a little sort of band of leaders around her that equally were sort of slightly rabbit in headlights, but in a good way. In a good way. They were in the they were in there to listen. Like the power of that was absolutely massive, and something so simple just to get like a small group of people with a bit of a bit of brunch afterwards.
SPEAKER_05And just make it not such a formal exam, it's not a test. It's exactly I think there's also something about uh people experiencing what it feels like to feel uncomfortable. Yes. Talk to us more about that, Jennifer. Well, I think any of us in an underrepresented group knows exactly what that feels like minute by minute. Pretty much it's our lives every single day in some shape or form. And back to what you were saying, Kat, if you know we can relay this as in second, third, fourth hand if you're trying to explain what it feels like to be part of a certain community, have these experiences. But when you are suddenly the minority in the room for whatever reason, whatever that demographic is, and you can feel it, you can feel it physically, you feel it mentally, sweating a bit, it it it it changes the dynamic, and then think, well, that's someone's experience almost every day of their life. What does that feel like to come to work every day and go through that constantly in different meetings and different rooms? And so I I again it it's not about um trying to out anybody or or or make them feel horrible or or demean them in any way, but it's trying to as much as you can almost recreate the experience so they just get a little bit of insight of what we carry with us all the time.
SPEAKER_01Interestingly, I we had a uh lunch event the other day for our global inclusivity members. Someone was telling me about um it was like human libraries. Have you heard of human libraries? So it was almost like you have a group of, let's say, your senior leadership team, and you have a table for almost like each dimension of diversity, if you will. So we could go over and we can go and talk to Shah, and Shah was going to share all about her neurodiversity and and like what it's like working in the workplace for for Shah. You can come and talk to me at my table, I'll tell you about being a lesbian, IVF, you know, all these bits and pieces. So you basically sort of walk around the room and you you almost like open the book on someone's life. And I was like, that sounds great. And then when I was talking to the person about this, she said that she had literally spent three and a half hours repeating the same story again and again, you know, really deep depths of like her IVF journey and kids and everything else. And then she said by the end of it, I just was absolutely pleased. Exhausted. Yes. So, again, from what on the surface seemed like a really great idea to educate leaders to get them in there to feel it. I think actually hadn't maybe been reoccurring living at the end.
SPEAKER_00I'm so glad you said this, Kat, because I wanted to like add in a question before we wrap it up with our final question. Um, Jennifer, you are um an intersectional powerhouse. You are, you know, you're you're articulate, you're confident, you're empathetic, you you really do care. And that takes a lot of energy. So, what I'm curious about is how do you protect yourself or refuel yourself, nourish yourself, take care of yourself when you are, you know, fighting for the rights of others, having really high-level, difficult conversations, and trying to, you know, bring a seat at the table for those who might not have a seat. That's a lot of work, it takes a lot of energy. How on earth do you keep that sustainable?
SPEAKER_05That's a great question. An emotional question, but a great question. Um I think I'd acknowledge it's absolutely not easy at all. Uh, I describe DI work. You could think it doesn't matter the sector, the business, size of the organization. I can't think of another role uh in a business that you are so emotionally connected to. Like we can all do great work that we really care about. You know, even in third sector, you know that you and it's probably the closest to working in third sector, I think, where a lot of us choose what we're really deeply passionate about. It's it's the same thing, except I think in these very corporate spaces, you have to wear so many different hats. And the skill of being an EDI professional is sometimes you you do have to park how you're feeling as an individual about a very specific thing and wear your organizational hat, and you're there to support and protect and champion the organization and the people within it. And sometimes there's a conflict. There is a conflict, so um, it's definitely not easy work. Uh, and my the way that I do it, so I within our team we heavily rely on each other, so it is about how we support each other, and we have our safe spaces to cry, to just be like, I can't do it all. This is a lot when you've got lots of people coming at your door and sharing their stories, you carry a lot. Um, when you're trying to help the business navigate something really tricky, but we know we can just come together, cry, hug, scream, shout, whatever we need to do, and then it's like, okay, back in the game. We're good, we're good, we're dude, we're good. Um, so I think it's really important how you support each other within the team and within the organization. And then I think um for people that know me, I am a bit of a social butterfly, but uh, it's very deliberate for me because I call it feeding my soul. So I do lots of very different things where I meet different people who are sometimes not in my sector, not in my business, nowhere near in the same industry, just so I can renew myself through others, and I think that's really important. And then we have the and Kat will know because Kat and I have had many meaningful, deep, meaningful conversations where again you're in a safe space where it's like, oh god, thank God, I'm struggling too. Are you struggling? Um and and there aren't that many of especially when you're a senior leader, there aren't that many of those spaces because I'm also trying to protect my team. So I'm not gonna go into work every day and talk about how hard and difficult this is because that's not very motivating for my team. It's it's not no, it's not really great leadership. So so again, despite us having a safe space to support each other, I think there's another layer that the leader carries because I need them and want them to keep going. So I'm not trying to bring them down on a daily basis. So yeah, I think having other people you can talk to where you you almost don't even have to finish the sentences, we just know what we're going through, um, and you can share openly and feel like you've released because I think the release is really important and not to just hold everything and carry it, and then something to kind of renew your soul, as I call it.
SPEAKER_01I think I I go home to my wife quite frequently. I'm like, well, this has happened and this has happened, and that's why this is complicated and like there's only so much sometimes there, a bit like that sounds terrible for you. Um and it is difficult, but yeah, to be able to have that sort of network, and you're right, you there's a time and a space in terms of your team, and some uh DNI professionals are like one person band, so it's correct. They don't even have the world to yeah, where where are you gonna go to sort of get that that sort of yeah that release? There's something about keeping your team motivated and almost taking that negative energy off of them. I understand this is hard. Yes, this feels like a struggle, but we're in this together. You then sort of suck that up, and then you don't need some.
SPEAKER_00Um diversity umbrella, we should have some kind of EDI support online.
SPEAKER_01Well, as part of the membership, I do have to say the Global Inclusivity Membership, and we have a little lovely, like 10 to 12 people round for lunch, a nice bit of honesty, it's it is great. No one's invited me. You can be invited next time, shall we?
SPEAKER_05And it is literally that you're in with and you're just and it's trusted space, you can just let loose, and then it's like, okay, great.
SPEAKER_04Well, let's go. Let's go back. Let's let's go back.
SPEAKER_01It is absolutely critical, I think, yeah, to find that person, those people that again are part of that almost, I would say it's almost like having a board of directors for Cat Parsons. I've I've got like I've got people that I can go to that I know I can be like, this is really difficult. Like, how do I navigate this? And people who will champion and people who will be very realistic with me. Yeah. And people who are solutions. You do need that. You need different things at different times, don't you?
SPEAKER_05So I like that board of directors, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01You should do that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm more I'm available. Are you available?
SPEAKER_00Are you ready for the final question?
SPEAKER_01I am ready for the final question.
SPEAKER_00Should we do it? You go, you go. Awesome. Um, at the end of every podcast, we ask each of our guests exactly the same question because we are curious. So, Jennifer, if we were having this conversation three years from now, what progress would you hope to see across UK business? So, this is an easy one for me. Yes, is it easy?
SPEAKER_05It is an easy one for the confidence. And I'll give you a little hint because I've already I've already mentioned it during our talk. So I know three years actually isn't that that far away, but my dream in this space is you don't need an EDI team.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Do you think that would happen? I I have to believe that that can happen. I I I do, because that's what I get out of bed for every morning, right? So and it wouldn't uh the EDI team wouldn't disappear because we've eradicated EDI or EDI is dead. It's because it lives and breathes, it's its own organism that that is just everywhere. You know, back to where we started this conversation. When you slice and dice the organization, it's there. It's in the way we think, it's in the way we design, it's in the way we make decisions, it's in the way we hire and promote, it's in how we treat each other, it just exists everywhere. And okay, maybe you might need one person to sort of lead strategy, if you will, but the team wouldn't be doing what I think a lot of us are doing today, which is really driving the agenda. The agenda will be driven.
SPEAKER_00Oh self-driving EDI agenda. Self-driving EDI.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna book in three years' time to the day.
SPEAKER_00Let's let's just say 2030, just to get a bit of a bought.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, I like it. 2030, that's my dream.
SPEAKER_01I love this. Let's see. Let's see. Another episode done. Shah, thank you ever so much.
SPEAKER_00Kat, thank you ever so much, and thank you especially to our very incredible guest.
SPEAKER_04I have had a blast. Thank you, I words, and thank you, both Shah and Kat for the pleasure.
SPEAKER_01And thank you ever so much to Paramount for letting us uh utilize their studios to record these fabulous podcast series. And we will be back soon with another episode.
SPEAKER_00Lastly, thanks to you listeners. Thanks for tuning in, thanks for joining us, thanks for caring us. And remember, if you need anything more from us, don't forget to search under the global umbrella. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you soon.